|
|
Post by Mansion on May 28, 2009 23:20:49 GMT -5
Blackboxx -- Shipping is a little different than say, having an intense nerdy discussion about some minor canon aspect of the movie, as it's based on the feelings of fellow fans rather than cold, hard fact. So coming in here and throwing cold water on the discussion serves more to antagonize yourself to us rather than prove your point. It's the whole "you can't argue with faith" logic paradox. That being said, I understand your frustration/annoyance and you're ususally not "rude" per say, so I don't mind your comments. Actually, they're kind of refreshing, reminding me that I like the movie itself rather than the little soap opra of love and gushiness that plays in my head.
Anyway, self-actualization and romance aren't mutally exclusive, especially between people who respect each other.
Nobility -- *rubs hands* And now back to our fangirly discussion!
My original point had slightly more to do with bad!fic than my actual opinion on how things would play out. Well, the "painfully cliche confession" had more to do with bad!fic. The "nothing happening without a catalyst", I'm afraid, is pretty much true all around.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that Dr. Cockroach doesn't seem to be that socially inept. Yeah, one of the recurring gags is that his attempts at colloquialisms fall tragically flat, but all in all, he's pretty charming. I've never gotten the "awkward geek" vibe from him. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while he might be left-brained to a fault, I'm pretty sure he's had enough social experiences and attempts at romance to not put Susan into a spot like that.
It's weird for me to try to find a balance in exactly how to characterize him, because he's different in theory than he is in practice. You can say, oh, he's a scientist who's married to his work, and that's true, but there's also aspects to his character like the dancing thing, which clearly says that there's more to it than that. It, uh... It takes two to tango, as they say. ^__^ So in terms of something like romancing her, I can see him doing it well (almost to the point of it being textbook), but being emotionally available enough to satisfy someone as soulful and heart-before-head as Susan in a continual relationship... That's where I see the conflict.
Of course that's where you mention Katie/Link! XDD (In all honestly, though, I can never see that particular ship as anything more than a fling. Oh, but one hell of a fling it would be... *grins*)
Seriously, yeah, that's my main issue on the Link/Susan ship, as much as I really do adore it. As for long term, there's just nothing to be said. Conversely, that's the thing I always pull out to snuggle as my security blanket of reason for Susan/Cockroach. While Link's very transient and unfocused in his romantic affections, Susan's very long-term and focused in hers. So for S/C, my very favorite sort of scenario is for something to gradually develop over the course of years into something sort of halfway between romantic and platonic like a long term monogamous relationship tends to be. And I feel like the Doc would be much more open to that sort of thing, whereas Link would be more restless in that senario.
But as for physical vs. abstinant relatioships, eh, making squicky assumptions here, but Link is very clearly not human and while he may find human women attractive, actually doing anything with them might be impossible. And if it's a perpetual case of look-don't-touch... Well, Susan's a girl he respects and finds attractive, and physicality is equally impossible for her, so a chaste relationship might not be such a big deal.
Me, too! I was mostly making fun of myself. See, when I look at things from logical angles, I start to doubt myself and what I'm doing, but in my primal fangirlish heart, S/C makes me squee, plain and simple, so I have to ship them despite all odds and logic. Of course, S/L makes me squee, too... Just not quite as much.
Oh, well. I still have unlawful amounts of fun crafting arguments.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nobility on May 29, 2009 1:16:06 GMT -5
*Reads Mansion's post and nods* ... Dagnabit, I have no counter-point to make!
True. I guess what I meant to say is I could see Cockroach in that situation easier than I could see Link, and it came out wrong. You're right in that Cockroach might not be as much of a shy-smitten geek as I thought he was- he's actually fairly impervious to embarrassment (he might've apologized for the cat's me-wow joke, but it was more of an annoyed "why-didn't-anyone-laugh!?" pout than an "oh-snap-I-made-a-fool-of-myself" pout).
I also agree that Cockroach/Susan has a better chance of working long term than Link/Susan, for all the reasons you've stated. That's a good security blanket reason.
Ach, don't be like that, Twitter! Go ahead! Post! Brag about Cockroach/Susan! Really, we don't mean to bite. I'd like to hear an in-depth pro/con list of C/S, honestly.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mansion on May 29, 2009 1:29:55 GMT -5
I has converted you! Win for me!
But yes, when we dwell on the science too much, it becomes really one-sided and it's all more complex than that.
*snuggles blanket* It keeps me warm at night... ^__^
Anyway, Twitter, don't be shy. I know it seems like Nobility and I monoplize every ship discussion (because we do) and make more points for S/L (...because we do), but the influx of new ideas is the lifeblood of these discussions (and without it, we just get a lot of "I agree!" posts...).
|
|
|
|
Post by fuzzynecromancer on May 29, 2009 1:50:47 GMT -5
Adressing the physical side of things, it is possible for any of the characters in the film to have a satisfying physical relationship, but I don't want to go into the precise details here. Just trust me that, even with a 49'11" woman, chastity is not the only option. >_>
Now that angle is resolved and we can get back to the character-driven dimensions.
An important question with Link is, would he be able to commit? If he continued flirting in a commited relationship, would Susan put up with it? The relationship with susan and derek is almost unique in the annals of cinematic history because it is rival-free. There isn't even the token never-going-to-happen rival, so we have no idea how Susan response to external threats to a relationship. Does she get jealous? Is she easily threatened? We also don't know anything about fish-ape culture. Gorillas live in groups where one older male has several female partners at once. Do the fish-apes have a similar set up? It's also true that some fish change their physical sex based on external circumstances (prevelance of gender, food availability, temperature, season, etc.) Maybe now that he's out in the open air again, some old icthyiod glands may act up and soon the macho Missing Link will join the female majority?
There's no definitive word on this, but all these uncertain elements serve as a con to the relationship's long-term viability/plausability, but a pro to the amount of romantic tension and drama you can spin out of it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Blackboxx on May 29, 2009 9:05:16 GMT -5
Oh, I know. I get little ornery flashes every once in a while. You guys simply got a little taste of it. But I'm back to normal now. Hooray!
I've dealt with shipping a lot in the past. Some of you may know thta I'm a big fan of Avatar: the Last Airbender.
Anyone that may be interested in watching the show but has not done so, spoiler alert!!!
That show was plagued by weird shippers. Some actually believed that Zuko (villain, conflicted with own values, villain again, finally truly redeemed) would end up with Kataara (main character's love interest)... Kataara pretty much hated Zuko for like all but the last 6 episodes, but these people thought it was written in the stars or something. That kind of irrational thought is what gets me. Then there was Sokka (16 year old I believe) and Toph (10 maybe? I don't remember, but she's a kid). Sokka already lost one love interest and was in danger of losing another. How could he get over that so quickly just so he could be with a child?
Spoilers over, now go watch it.
Here? There's nothing irrational about Link or Doc hooking up with Ginormica. There is a strong friendship between all of them. It's entirely possible, though I hope they remain strong friends for my own reasons. The sea of bad fiction doesn't make the idea bad, just the individual execution. I hope no one thinks that is my view.
As far as the cold water dousing...*hands out freshly dried towels, and sets up a bin for disposal*. I hope I didn't ruin anyone's fun (don't think I did, but just in case). That was never my intention. We're all on good terms here, yes?
|
|
|
|
Post by Mansion on May 29, 2009 13:01:26 GMT -5
I... know. Um, yeah, this isn't the only discussion board to have touched on this issue. It ususally ends up with a lot of virtual blushing and changing of the subject.
It's true that there's no actual "rival" per say, but that's not to say there wasn't conflict in the relationship. Like with the "BOOM we're goin' to Fresno!" bomb. And in that case, Susan shut her mouth and tried to pave everything over for the sake of her relationship. And even when Derek broke up with her, her first instinct was to clam up and walk away.
From that point on, she did get angry and start to realize she'd reacted the wrong way, but in the clutch, she was a peacemaker. Don't get me wrong, her personality did change and emerge by the end of the movie, and how that would effect her behavior in relationships remains to be seen.
As for hypothesisizing on the fish-ape race, I'm deferring to you because you clearly know more about it. Interesting points, indeed.
Now changing the subject to CRACKPAIRS, as discussed by Blackboxx! Yeah, I know what you mean, but... If someone's writing a crackpair for the hell of it, just because they like the pairing, no harm done. If someone extends that crap to the canon, that's just plain annoying.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
And yeah, I'd like to think we're all on good terms. I'll admit, your first "I hate shipping!" comment raised my hackles a bit, but after a couple seconds, I realized, well, who am I to complain or judge or get offended? And I have to say, I look forward to reading pretty much anything you post, as you always have good points to make.
|
|
|
|
Post by fuzzynecromancer on May 29, 2009 13:48:06 GMT -5
Well yes, there was conflict, but it was internal conflict. That was my main point. The conflict resulted from the normal interactions between the characters, rather than some outside intervention. This tends to be more rare than external conflict in films, where somebody is trying to break up the couple, or the couple are seperated by forces outside of their control, and consequently has a different dynamic because there is no third party. We know how Susan deals with trouble that stems from her and a partner having conflicting goals, but we don't know how she reacts to a third party at work, and the dynamics of a classic "love triangle" (which I always thought is a misnomer, since in a traditional love triangle there are only two "sides" in the form of romantic attachments, leaving it incomplete). That might be an issue with Missing Link.
Edit: I've thought of a Pro to Ginormica x Missing Link.
It doesn't have to be serious.
Ginormica got out of a bad marraige situation. It was a relationship that had grown to take over her whole life plan. I think the last thing she'll be looking for is an opportunity to make a huge emotional investment and get burned again. A no-pressure, short term relationship or fling would be a lot less likely to hurt, and require a lot less risk on her part.
|
|
|
|
Post by Aurum on Jun 7, 2009 1:30:40 GMT -5
I've dealt with shipping a lot in the past. Some of you may know thta I'm a big fan of Avatar: the Last Airbender. Anyone that may be interested in watching the show but has not done so, spoiler alert!!! That show was plagued by weird shippers. Some actually believed that Zuko (villain, conflicted with own values, villain again, finally truly redeemed) would end up with Kataara (main character's love interest)... Kataara pretty much hated Zuko for like all but the last 6 episodes, but these people thought it was written in the stars or something. That kind of irrational thought is what gets me. Then there was Sokka (16 year old I believe) and Toph (10 maybe? I don't remember, but she's a kid). Sokka already lost one love interest and was in danger of losing another. How could he get over that so quickly just so he could be with a child? Spoilers over, now go watch it.I hate to be a silly nitpicker buuuut... Sokka was 15 at the start and Toph was 12. I'm guessing around 16 and 13 respectively by the last episode because the whole series took about a year. Sorry, waaaay off your topic.  Zutara shippers were everywhere. It was amazing how there were so few moments of them interacting as typical sidehero/main villain in even season one before that ship became so successful! Spoilers: But man, I would have wanted Zuko to be good for more than ten episodes because the pacing just felt off between the two halves of season three. |
|
|
|
Post by Blackboxx on Jun 7, 2009 8:05:36 GMT -5
More spoily stuff!:
Thanks for clearing up the age differences. The point is, she's still immature, and he is committed to someone else. Toph may have shown interest in him in her own hidden ways, but he never reciprocated, or even knew about it. Besides, all the blushing was just her being embarrassed to show concern for him when all the time traveling with the group, she was very vocal about being independent.
And Zuko was good for much more than ten episodes, he just never convinced Aang and co. of it until then. I forget which episode it was, but it was early in season one where they portray Zuko as a tragic villain who wants to do what's right. He was simply conflicted as to what right actually meant. Is it following your own post-conventional ideas of morality, or obeying your father, and acting in the interest of your country? He initially thought the former, but had the latter beaten (and burned) into his head. It was pretty obvious that he was a good person. We just never knew how or when he would let it be known to everyone.
End of spoilage!!!
Like I said, it's irrational shipping that agitates me. When I slow down and actually think about the popular MVA ships, there's nothing inherently irrational about them. They are often poorly done, and to me, that's an equally egregious offense.
If you're going to write, and post on the internet, please, please, PLEASE at least know about proper grammar and spelling, and decent flow of ideas. "And suddenly" only works so many times before originality takes a massive hit, and randomness takes over. Characters should not break who they are without reason. If characters are going to fall in love when the source material leaves it at friendship, your reasoning better include a major event to spark that. Far too many fanfics began with implied romance being interpreted as canon (Ginormica and Doc were lovers from the get-go as if it was obvious).
That rant wasn't directed at anyone in particular. I just take that kind of tone whenever I try to explain my view. It's more like, "this is how I want it to be: A, B, C". It's just me. I don't make the rules. I don't suffer delusions of grandeur that tell me I know better than everyone else. Lots of people disagree with my view, and that's fine by me. For all you shippers out there, I come in peace. *extends hand*
|
|
|
|
Post by Aurum on Jun 7, 2009 10:21:27 GMT -5
I am neither for nor against Tokka. I just wanted to point out the ages. ;)
That's what I meant by good Zuko. And not the anti-hero conflict troubles. I meant joining the group and stuff. The first half of the season was so slow, man. Then the second half was fast solving every possible subplot (Save for that painfully obvious one.) in like four episodes.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mansion on Jun 7, 2009 13:18:47 GMT -5
That rant should be directed at everyone who posts fanfiction. Seriously. And don't get me wrong, I am all about the fanfiction... But this fandom's product is even worse that I'd expected.
"If characters are going to fall in love when the source material leaves it at friendship, your reasoning better include a major event to spark that." YES, YES, A THOUSAND TIMES YES! Seriously, even when people are using the sort of plot device that could actually be a decent spark, rarely do they bother to delve into realistic reactions to it. Because it's just treated as a bridge to them being in love. Not that it being a bridge is some kind of horrible transgression or anything, because a lot of plot devices in any kind of storytelling are just that: plot devices to take the character from A to B. But the trick is to not treat them like plot devices that magically change the situation, but catalysts that spark an internal change.
But basically, since it's all amatuer writing, a lot of the time, that sort of thought doesn't go into it. As much as we'd all perfer it if people would take a writing class or two and learn how the mechanics of storytelling work, it's really not going to happen.
Hmm. Looks like I'm the one ranting now. Ah, well. I stand by it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Blackboxx on Jun 7, 2009 16:04:59 GMT -5
I am neither for nor against Tokka. I just wanted to point out the ages. ;) That's what I meant by good Zuko. And not the anti-hero conflict troubles. I meant joining the group and stuff. The first half of the season was so slow, man. Then the second half was fast solving every possible subplot (Save for that painfully obvious one.) in like four episodes.This whole thing is pretty much a spoiler. Would you by any chance be referring to the whole
Zuko: "Where's my mother"?
*scene fades*
*next scene opens with everyone (including Zuko) back in Ba Sing Se having tea*
Yeah. That really felt like a lot was left out or missing. He was in the Fire Nation prison, interrogating his criminal father, fade out, fade in, he's across an ocean in a different city smiling with his friends? Come again? Did we miss something? |
|
|
|
Post by Aurum on Jun 7, 2009 21:21:30 GMT -5
^Oh yes.
|
|
|
|
Post by fuzzynecromancer on Jun 7, 2009 23:11:40 GMT -5
Anyone wanna analyze the pros and cons of Susan x Cuthbert? >_>
|
|
|
|
Post by Mansion on Jun 8, 2009 2:03:02 GMT -5
Sad to say, fuzzy, but you're the only one who's really pushing that one.
|
|
