The ironic, post-modern Dr. C/Susan thread

[Mansion]

Okay... I ship them. I ship them a LOT. But I don't think that it was the great secret romance of the film. So, I was wondering if there was room for a more speculative discussion thread about them... Not discussing the hints in the movie, but more like... future fic and stuff? Intense, in-depth analysis of their personalities? Ramifications of them being in a long-term relationship?

Y'know, the stuff I bring up in other ship discussion threads and am promptly ignored for talking about?

[Twitter Cordova]

And the shipping for Dr. Cockroach and Susan continues. YAY!

Well, don't feel too bad if you're confuse about shipping this couple or basically trying to ignore it and move on to different couples. I get kinda picky on the ones that I ship for myself.

I just like this couple a lot more than Susan/Link because I can sense their realtionship going somewhere cute on the romantic level, not that I don't have a problem of Link liking Susan a lot, I've seen the hints on there too, but it's just...I don't know. You can't really hate any of these couples at all because most of them we find them really aborable.

I've tend to notice that at Fanfiction.Net lots of the Dr. C/Susan fanfics mostly invole them returning back to their normal human forms and getting together or something more sweet and lovely on the romance part I would think. I read lots of them and keep them as my favorites on my FF.Net.

And then there's also the ones were Dr. C is falling in love with an OC that some author from FF.Net creates. I'm not exactly sure if this helps where I'm going from in this discussion, but I'm pretty sure you'll be able to understand what I think about this.

[Mansion]

Um, I'm not confused about Dr. C/Susan... I really like it. Like, waaaay too much. I just wanted to have a serious, way-too-intensive discussion thread about it rather than--and don't get me wrong; I've contributed more than my fair share to this sort of thing--"Lolz, they almost kissed when he grabbed her on the ship!!!" So discussions should be in the range of... Why their personilities are suited to each other, long-term speculation of their relationship (rather than them finally hooking up, then the story suddenly being over), logical points on the aspects of their relationship (since he's a six-foot cockroach man and she's a very nearly fifty-foot woman, and sometimes that's a problem ^_^), and miscellanious manifestoes of why you ship them.

I'm NOT really going for analysis of hints in the movie only, comparions to other MvA ships, or just talking about how cute they are together. I'm such a picky bee-yotch, I know!

But to expand on a point you brought up about the trendy way to ship them...

Part of the reason I ship them is because I think it'll work in the long-term. And honestly, these "suddenly back to normal" fics bother me. In part because it's everyone leaping onto this fanfiction concept that origionally had a genuine purpose (in Ginseng Love's trilogy, when Susan had a choice of either being returned to normal or remaining imprisoned), but now has just become a convenient plotpoint. (I've been in SO many other fandoms where the same thing happens... Sombody writes a groundbreaking fic, and then a bunch of copycats use the same concept. I'm not even gonna lie; I've done it, too. But it bothers me when that happens, and it's happening very badly in this fandom.). And often, I find the reasoning behind it is anywhere from slightly skewed to majorly impossible. The quantonium-null jewelry trend is particularly bothering me. I keep seeing it, and it never makes any sense. Mad science nonwithstanding, quantonium is the MOST POWERFUL SUBSTANCE IN THE GALAXY! And there's a lot of it in her. There's no way I can see anything from Earth nullifying it. And there's no way she could keep all her strength without her size... The quantonium is the sole source of her strength, size, and impervability.

PLUS, it's already been established that the quantonium can be removed (Gallaxhar had NO qualms about hurting Susan, but the extraction process left her alive and well), so if the author absolutely feels the need to go there, there's already a canon way to do it. It's not as convenient, maybe, but it's more logical.

And Susan specifically chose to be Ginormica, I'd like to again point out. Her size has very much become a part of her. It doesn't make her who she is, but she seems to prefer it. So what ends up being the only reason to change is her love for Dr. C, and... It's messy and unrealistic and regresses over a lot of her character developments. She JUST got out of a relationship where she was always bending over backwards and trying to change herself for her partner... And I think we can all agree that one of the great things about Dr. C is that he would love her no matter what she looked like or was. Five feet, fifty feet, mutated squid monster... Doesn't matter. So I see it as being a very unnessacary choice on her part, and her reasoning behind it is often underdeveloped or, at the very least, impulsive.

As for Dr. C returning to normal... I don't have as many logical points to bring up there. He could probably do it. If he was really slick about it, he might even be able to keep his longevity, though I notice that point is almost never mentioned. The guy's seriously something like eighty, maybe ninety? Obviously, the mutation's the only thing keeping him sharp and youthful. Remove it... Who knows what might happen? Also, the DNA thing's a little messier than the matter of quantonium. Obviously, the cockroach DNA's spliced into his, and that sort of thing's much harder to fix that to cause. Again, not saying he couldn't, but it's awfully risky. And... Why would he do it? He seems to be pretty comfortable in his own exoskeleton, confident and happy with his powers, and surely it's the only thing that's kept him from getting killed by his own mad science and the resulting explosions. So we just get back to the problem of it being sloppy writing, and only happening for the all-consuming powers of love and narritive convenience.

And the thing that really bothers me is that none of it even NEEDS to happen. If they love each other, they love each other for exactly who they are, cockroach mutations and giantism and all. It's been well established that their bond goes beyond their outer appearances. So at best, the "return to normal" fics are a way to include physical affection, and even then, it's terribly underutilized, remaining mostly in the realm of a single kiss before the scene fades to black.

Please don't get me wrong: If an author wants/needs them to be able to have a physical relationship... Go for it. Logic it out. Make a plot, consider the ramifications, round out their reasoning. I see a lot of fic not doing any of this, but simply following a trend, and it shows in the product.

But if you just want them to be in love... You can let them be who they really are instead of needing to change them to be rid of the social stigma. It's okay. It's the whole message of the movie you love so very much.

And that's what I have to say about that.

[Nobility]

You know, one of the reasons why your points tend to be "ignored" is because you SAY everything that needs to be said, Mansion. I'm not criticizing you, by the way, that was a compliment- you've said just about everything I could about this ship. Still, this is a thread about over-analysis, so I better contribute.

Speaking from a purely biological standpoint, these two are the most compatible monsters, even when both are mutated, since I'm assuming Cockroach still has mostly human reproductive organs. The biggest obstacle this relationship would face, physically, would be Ginormica's size- which, as you've pointed out, is a defining characteristic of Ginormica and the symbol of her character development.

Of course, I could argue that it was actually Ginormica's super-strength that helped her grow and settle into her monster-ness, and that her size would only be an inconvenience in the long run- but that's not the point. The question is, why would Ginormica give up being... Ginormica, just to be in a relationship when she's already come out of unhealthy co-dependent relationship? This would effectively nullify her character development from the movie, in a way... if it happened shortly after the events of the movie.

Now, of course, if you did a little time-skip, and have the story take place several years after the movie, you could logically work in Ginormica's loneliness and perhaps have her wishing to return to a simpler time in her life when she didn't have to look everywhere she was going when she took a step to keep from crushing people, and maybe even regret the fact that she would never be able to pursue a real relationship anymore. After all, just because she had one bad fiance, doesn't mean she's completely barred from ever having a happy, healthy relationship, nor would it completely destroy her character- provided it takes place after she's firmly cemented herself as a strong-willed, independent woman who does not need a man to live and breathe, but still would like to have a man in her life.

In short, the motivation for Ginormica to return to Susan Murphy is there, but the motivation for Cockroach to return to being fully human is NOT. Cockroach isn't just content with his mutation, he fully enjoys it. In fact, he can't see why anyone else wouldn't- he can crawl up walls, has a much longer lifespan, and can survive a nuclear blast! The only thing he has to give up in return is his rugged face- in his mind, that is a very small price to pay. There's really no way I could think of that would make the Doc ever regret his transformation the same way Ginormica would.

[Mansion]

Aww, shucks, Nobility... I just love going way overboard. You've probably noticed by now that I can make completely different arguments over different ships involving the same characters... I just love logicking each one out. My shipping is a multiverse.

You know, it's funny you should bring up the "years down the road" point, as that's the whole basis of the stupid GD fic I've been picking at since a week after I saw the movie. After awhile, she'd get completely physically starved, and, yes, would probably begin to regret her isolation. Then being simply human would start to have its appeal. But then again, it would also be a much more difficult adjustment after so many years (being huge, super-strong, near-impervious to the elements, and possessed of boundless radioactive energy... Then going to tiny, vulnerable humanity...) It's a difficult decision, and I think it's end up always being a grass-is-greener situtation.

The point I was making before was really about the bad!fic plots of the quantonium-null device being the Doc's first invention after getting out of prision. And... That's just a no. Stuff like that destorys her arc. And anyway, I'd rather see her relationship with the Doc mature a lot more on a purely platonic level before the next step was taken, anyway. Susan's, well, kind of green. She still has growing up and healing from Derek and discovering life as an independant person to do. BOOM relationship = bad. And, of course, there's that pesky only-known-each-other-for-a-month point that I love to keep throwing in everyone's faces.

[q]After all, just because she had one bad fiance, doesn't mean she's completely barred from ever having a happy, healthy relationship, nor would it completely destroy her character- provided it takes place after she's firmly cemented herself as a strong-willed, independent woman who does not need a man to live and breathe, but still would like to have a man in her life.[/q]

Yeah, that's pretty much it exactly.

And I so agree about the Doc having no reason to return to being fully human. After all, how shallow would the relationship be if that was a negative factor? It could still work on a physical level, as far as we know, with the oh-so-possible quantonium extraction. Though... He'd probably taste of garbage, wouldn't he? (I think about this stuff WAYYYY too much.)

Of course, these biological discussions always get me thinking of spawn... And then I have to start to puzzle that one out... Then my brain hates me.

But I guess I really can't argue with the logic of their outer appearances being only window-dressing to who they actually are. If Susan has a good reason for giving up her quantonium powers, I'm A-OK with that. But most of the time, you just don't find that kind of depth in shippy fanfiction, and that makes me start to hold a grugde against the other shippers.

[Nobility]

Speculation is certainly one of the most enjoyable aspects of shipping. ^_^ And by the way, I LOVE that story idea of yours. It's a perfect and logical motivation for Ginormica wanting to become Susan Murphy again, if even for a short time- especially if it's taking place during times of peace. After all, what good is super-strength and endurance if you don't have anything to use it on?

Bad fic... *sigh* Whatcha gonna do? It exists, everywhere, in every fandom you look.

The point I was making before was really about the bad!fic plots of the quantonium-null device being the Doc's first invention after getting out of prision. And... That's just a no. Stuff like that destorys her arc. And anyway, I'd rather see her relationship with the Doc mature a lot more on a purely platonic level before the next step was taken, anyway. Susan's, well, kind of green. She still has growing up and healing from Derek and discovering life as an independant person to do. BOOM relationship = bad. And, of course, there's that pesky only-known-each-other-for-a-month point that I love to keep throwing in everyone's faces.

You know, it's funny- when I first saw the movie, I couldn't help but notice the Dr. Cockroach/Susan pairing, and I was almost certain that there was no way you could take any of those scenes (specifically, the cat's me-wow scene) and NOT get the sense that the Doc was crushing on Susan, and crushing hard. But of course, with the way my brain works, I immediately went over those scenes again and viewed it from a purely platonic POV, and I discovered something interesting: I actually like their friendship a little more than I think I do their romance.

It mostly comes from the way they interacted in prison. Susan let herself become his personal guinea pig and subjugated herself to several of his inane experiments with little complaint, giving him a goal to achieve and allowing him to do what he does best: mad science. Cockroach came to view Susan as his own personal test subject, which isn't as demeaning as it sounds- he treats all of his inventions with respect and care, like they were his own children- and he would be especially careful with Susan.

Did that make any sense?

[Mansion]

I actually like their friendship a little more than I think I do their romance.
It mostly comes from the way they interacted in prison. Susan let herself become his personal guinea pig and subjugated herself to several of his inane experiments with little complaint, giving him a goal to achieve and allowing him to do what he does best: mad science. Cockroach came to view Susan as his own personal test subject, which isn't as demeaning as it sounds- he treats all of his inventions with respect and care, like they were his own children- and he would be especially careful with Susan.

Did that make any sense?

A lot of sense, really. In my own experience, I watched the movie without walking out of the theatre shipping any particular couple, then I logged on to FFN (when there were, like eleven fics) later that night, and pretty soon I decided that, damn, Dr. C/Susan is an awesome ship, so I created my mental manifesto with three-day-old memories, and of course, everything seems shippier in retrospect. Then when I saw the movie again, I was like... Wait, all the shippy hints are for Susan/Link...? I got a lot of friendship vibes on their end (for instance, Link started out slightly combative and condescending to her, even if he did warm up to her pretty fast, but Dr. C was sweet to her even after getting walloped several times with the spoon), but I honestly never got the crushing vibe.

But their friendship, being so strong and encouraging right off the bat, was the thing that attracted me to the couple even more. I do love that Susan, even after a month of failures, was all, don't worry, we'll get it next time. And I definitely see what you mean about the treating her with care bit. He may be a bit of a megalomaniac, but his heart is always in the right place.

*clasps hands* Oh, but I really do love them as a couple. Something about it just hits all my switches in the right way. But that's because I love their friendship so much, to the point where romantic involvement's an unavoidable extention of that. So I always want to see that treated with care, rather than skidded over as convenience to get them together (bad!fic, I'm looking at you!).

[Go-Go Spiders]

Hmmm. (Beware, rampant speculation ahoy.)

Just like Susan becoming Ginormica was probably the best thing to happen to her, the same could be said for Dr. C becoming a cockroach. Not just for the fact that it halted his aging and gave him incredible cockroach powers, but that it also helped him become a better person.

The ten seconds we see Dr. C as a human, my first impression was along the lines of 'gee, he's awful arrogant'. He's the smartest man in the world, and he damn well knows it. Just the way human!Dr. C walks to his pod-machine with one hand behind his back, and his nose in the air as the door swings shut drives home that this is someone very vain and very full of himself. Having his experiment succeed as he'd intended would've only inflated that enormous ego further, which wouldn't have been pretty at all. But while his experiment did (kinda) work, the fact that it gave him a cockroach head was most likely a critical blow to his vanity.

His subsquent capture and decades in government captivity with the other monsters seems to have been enough to knock his ego down to a reasonable level and he eventually came to terms with being a mutant, and, like Mansion said, he wouldn't see any reasons to change back at this point. He may've unsucessfully tried to change himself back early in his capture, but now that he's adjusted to it and actually enjoys being part-cockroach, he wouldn't see any reason to change back. Even if he did, he might be a little ashamed of what he was like as a human. Dr. Cockroach is a good person despite being part-cockroach and a mad scientist to boot. Human!Dr. C, in spite of being entirely human, was probably less so. Yeah, the present-day Dr. Cockroach is still smarter then everyone else in the room and is still prone to moments of craziness, but it's a safe bet that he's much more sympathetic and understanding towards other people (and monsters) now then he was back in the 1950s. And while he's still a little aloof compared to the other monsters, he's not as arrogant as, say, Link.

And that is my mini-analysis for the day.

[Mansion]

Yay! We love rampant speculation! It's the entire point of this over-pretensiously titled thread!

And kudos for bring up a whole bunch of heretofore unmentioned points about the Doc, G-GS. Very intriguing stuff, and a lot of things I honestly hadn't considered. But, yes, I've thought that the mutation was probably the best thing that could have happened to him for a long time, myself, albiet mostly on a longevity and hardiness level and based on how enamored with his own abilities he clearly was thoughout the whole movie.

It's probably safe to say that human!Dr. C was more than a little possessed of scientific hubris, what with testing his own experiments on himself and all. And probably dissassociated with most other people, as well, since he's so vastly more intelligent. I don't know how how much I can agree with your assessment of vanity (being that I never got that vibe myself), but it does seem like a safe assumption based on the points you made. I see his previous life as more complete disenfranchisement with the world and everyone in it. More Victor Frankenstein vibes... He sees himself as completely above the rest of the world, and capable of doing that which no one else has ever managed. "Should I?" is eventually replaced with "Can I?" and the moral compass goes completely directionless. Well, in short... I think he was far more of a "mad scientist" when he was human then he eventually turned out to be as a cockroach.

And, yeah, those first four years of isolation in The Area probably went a long way to break him of those habits, what with going from the scientist to, essentially, the test subject. Which probably gave him a lot more empathy towards others.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that becoming part cockroach actually forced him to get in touch with his humanity. Oooh, how poetic!

So... I hope that wasn't just a rehash of what you said...

Oh, and in the Link/Susan thread, Nobility brought up some great points about how being imprisioned actually might have eventually helped Dr. Cockroach's social skills, what with the fixed interaction with others on a daily basis. Also, that would redefine who he considered his peers and give him a more realistic self-image. Deflate the ego a bit, and all that.

[Nobility]

Human!Cockroach being incredibly vain and erring on the madder side of mad science is actually very interesting. I've never really seen this side of him explored in fan fiction, which is a shame.

Hm, now I'm tempted to write a story that shows how the monsters met in prison...

[Mansion]

People tend to focus on the charm as opposed to, oh, the Lego nuke. ^_^ I don't think he's an unstable character during the course of the movie, but that stablity was likely hard-won.

One of the things I hear about The M Files is that the Doc's actually a lot colder and focused on SCIENCE. I still haven't actually read it for myself (apparantly it's, um, less than period accurate and kind of shoddy...?), but it might be an interesting parallel to run. There are really only a precious few character-driven fics, and even though the Doc is definitely one of the most written-about characters, for the most part, his psyche isn't really plumbed in that sense. (It's always about the romance... *rolls eyes*) But I find the mad science to be far and above the most interesting aspect to his personality, and I can't help but dwell and dwell and DWELL...

And it's showing up here and there in my fics. Heck, between the dozens of threads that have gone into in-depth discussion about the characterizations/historys/motivations of various characters, I've got this entire fanwanked mental manifesto for the entire team and their interactions, and it bleeds through to my fic. Which, I guess, is good.

Write fic, Nobility! *cheers!*

[Mansion]

*prods dead thread with a stick* Hmm, that's no good...

*fires up the electrodes as a thunderstorm encroaches* KZZZZACCKKKKKK!!!

IT'S ALIIIIVEEEEEE! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!

Okay. I am now the proud owner of a copy of the "M" Files. And yes, there is a definite bent of "cold hard frickin' insane mad science" to the Doc's characterization there. To the point where he's kind of bitchy and elitist. And I alllllmost wanna say he's not like that in the movie, but it's really two totally different situations.

In the comic, there's really not any kind of plot or goal... It's making up stuff to do during the interminable period of imprisionment. So his mad science is really... well, mad. Pushing the boundries of sanity merely out of boredom.

In the movie, he has specific goals (shrink Susan, build a fast vehicle, take down Gallaxhar's ship), so there's not really a lot of delving into "what can I possibly explode with a burnt-out lightbulb and some Silly Putty?" It's more implied than shown that he's dangerously creative and a liiiiittle crazy. Also, he was specifically nice and supportive to Susan in particular. So the mad science was more flavoring to his character and a plot device than something that was focused on.

So... That's where the drop-off is, I think. If you really think about his character's elements and skills and backstory, he's archetypically the quintessence of a mad scientist, but his actual behavior in the film was... Sweet, silly, charming, a little dorky, and all-around pretty nice. Which is why everybody loves him to death.

That's why you just don't see the Victor Frankenstien craziness in fics, I guess. Even though it is fun as heck to explore if one is so inclined.

*listens to the clatter of the keyboard echoing hollowly around the vast emptiness of cyperspace*

On a totally different note... I've been wondering for a long time about whether or not quantonium is radioactive (this is what I do with my spare time, folks). But if it is... There's something kind of poetically satisfying about the thought of a radioactive woman and a cockroach man, don'tcha think?

And that is my rambling for today. Not terribly interesting, but what can ya do? I really want this thread to not be dead anymore.

[Nobility]

You know, on the subject of Cockroach's personality before and after prison, I'm going to reiterate my belief that it was being in prison with the other monsters that forced the Doc to change his attitude and become a nicer person for it. As a human, all of his closest associates were most likely other people like him- incredibly intelligent, snooty scientists who were very critical of his work, and looked down upon him as the crazy one. So the Doc comes up with a "brilliant" plan to combine cockroach and human DNA to increase longevity to convince all of the scientific community that he is not a quack, he is a genius! And then, when his invention WORKS (for the most part), instead of giving the nobel prize for his achievement, he is branded a monster and locked in high-security prison for the next sixty years of his life.

Then, after two years of being totally alone in prison, his only companion happens to be a brainless, child-like blob who can barely hold a conversation, far, far different from the kind of company Cockroach was ever used to. Of course, B.O.B. frustrates Cockroach like nothing's ever frustrated him before, but B.O.B. also gives him something Cockroach has never really been given before- respect. B.O.B. may be an idiot, but he knows Cockroach is super smart, and he can build just about everything out of anything, and he looks to Cockroach as the guy who can solve any problem (like when he forgets how to breathe).

So Cockroach finally has what he's never had before: complete, total, genuine, awe-inspired respect. Even Link, who was most critical of Cockroach in the movie, respects him. All the monsters look to him as sort of their leading, teacher figure. He knows what he's doing, and he knows what you should be doing, as well (when it comes to fighting giant alien robots). Being around B.O.B. and the other monsters also helped Cockroach develop empathy for others, and he now takes a more fatherly role to the group.

What does this have to do with Cockroach/Susan? Answer: nothing, I just wanted to rant about monster bonding. >_<

[Mansion]

In all honesty, this has really become more about Dr. C than Susan. Everybody discusses Susan up and down, though, so I'm okay with that.

An-ee-wayss.... Good, good points, Nobility. One of the more subtle aspects of the movie I enjoyed was the family dynamic between Link and Dr. C and B.O.B. (I dunno. It's hard to include Insectra in stuff like this, since she only talks to Link...) He definitely has a lot of father/teacher vibes. And, sorta edging back to being remotely on-topic... That's--as you've said and as I've agreed with before--the way he treats Susan. The "don't worry, my dear, things will get better" sort of stuff, whereas her relationships with Link and B.O.B. were more siblingish (ego-clashing but more understanding of her emotional state from Link ala a close-in-age brother and having to basically take care of B.O.B. like a younger brother).

Ew... I probably have deep-seated issues if I ship S/C like this. (It's like shipping Giles/Buffy, in a way... O.o)

[Nobility]

Stinking Cockroach and his stinking ability to steal the stinking discussion.

Alright, back on topic... ah, geez!

So... who would be the first to admit their love, or at the very least, who would fall for each other first? Most of the fandom says Cockroach is already crushing on Susan, and he may very well be, but as I mentioned before, I wonder if he'd be willing to admit it, due to the age difference between them. At their age, it doesn't really matter, but Cockroach still might feel uncomfortable dating, or crushing on a woman who could be his daughter, or even his granddaughter. Given how easy-going Susan is, I'd doubt the age difference would be a problem for her, but would she be the one to jump-start the relationship?